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ThatOneReaper

Editing guide

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Awesome job! I do have some very minor suggestions:

 

Screenshots

  • add screenshot guide (make syntax with file name, hit preview, click on red link, upload)
  • multi-page settings (keybinds1, keybinds2...) merge into one screenshot
  • "For screenshots of external launchers or options menus, the window border should be visible." - Use alt + printscreen to capture just active window

The Fixbox

  • link to several good examples from real articles?
  • Providing instructions, major configuration file modifications section - add collapsible section? is it even possible within fixbox?

The Infobox

  • leave Engine section blank when engine is unnamed or in-house build

Video Settings

  • fixes related to the video settings should be under the table, so all the "See Field of View" links and fixes are close together. I'd even include here fixes for extra visual settings like motion blur, depth of field etc. Same for Input and Audio Settings sections.
  • what each icon represents? "true" (green tick) means that there is in-game option, "false" means there is no option even when a game supports it (ex AF by default to 16 but without option to lower it would be "false")

Issues Fixed

  • I wouldn't remove the whole fix when it is officially patched, because there can be people stuck on old version for some reason (modding compatibility for example). Just state with {{ii}} tag that the issue has been fix by patch and its version number.
  • I personally like to describe issue little bit with {{ii}} tag before inserting fixbox like so: "The game seems to have an issue with Razor gaming hardware, use this fix if you are having problems." This way I can keep name of the fix (inside ===Name=== tags) short and also include necessary information about identifying the issue.

 

Screenshots:

  • The technical aspect is already handled elswhere. Unless everyone wants to merge the two together, I'm not adding it in for the time being.
  • I've added in the other suggestions.

The Fixbox:

  • Suggestions for what articles to mention?
  • I don't think collapsible sections are possible. Someone else (Soeb?) will need to verify this.

The Infobox:

  • Added in.

Video Settings:

  • I'll add a general mention on that rule later on.
  • Added a separate legend at the top for the ratings system.

Issues Fixed:

  • Is there any need to clutter up a page with fixes for issues that are already officially patched? Not exactly sure what the official policy on that is.

 

If the guide has listed game-changing mods that alter the vanilla experience too much, should these modifications be removed from the guide? I've done that. Just Cause 2 had a Superman mod which by no means is "recommend" from an objective standpoint.

We should only add mods that improve the game without altering it, like unofficial bugfixes. You could as well put My Little Pony mod to The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim article.

Mods like that should be put under "Other information": Not a required download, but noteworthy to mention.

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As I said on IRC. It needs some rules related to cropping images. Aside from it:

  • I'd write that PCGamingWiki doesn't support pirated version of the game. As such we don't provide information where the save files in cracked versions are being stored, how to solve issues specific to such versions, etc. (not entire thing - just to point out, not do add paths to a locations where saves and config files from cracked versions are being stored). Also - don't upload
  • Save game cloud syncing - I'd mention, that true/false/unknown should only be present if the game is available on specified platform. Then give an example that is on a and as example point out a game which is available on some platform or via retail, but is not available on Steam. Cause some people have a tendency to write true/false/unknown for Steam Cloud, even if a game is not available on Steam.
  • Vsync - point out, that Vsync works only in Fullscreen mode.
  • High framerate - would be nice if people would point out not only if the game runs at high framerate, but if it's playable (because it's no use if the game can be rendered at higher framerate, but you can't play it like this -> Thief: Deadly Shadows).
  • Input Settings - please, bold out options.
  • Asynchronous multiplayer - I don't think the description is good enough.

And sorry if I'm repeating something that was already said, but I really want to get back to playing games :P

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As I said on IRC. It needs some rules related to cropping images. Aside from it:

  • I'd write that PCGamingWiki doesn't support pirated version of the game. As such we don't provide information where the save files in cracked versions are being stored, how to solve issues specific to such versions, etc. (not entire thing - just to point out, not do add paths to a locations where saves and config files from cracked versions are being stored). Also - don't upload
  • Save game cloud syncing - I'd mention, that true/false/unknown should only be present if the game is available on specified platform. Then give an example that is on a and as example point out a game which is available on some platform or via retail, but is not available on Steam. Cause some people have a tendency to write true/false/unknown for Steam Cloud, even if a game is not available on Steam.
  • Vsync - point out, that Vsync works only in Fullscreen mode.
  • High framerate - would be nice if people would point out not only if the game runs at high framerate, but if it's playable (because it's no use if the game can be rendered at higher framerate, but you can't play it like this -> Thief: Deadly Shadows).
  • Input Settings - please, bold out options.
  • Asynchronous multiplayer - I don't think the description is good enough.

And sorry if I'm repeating something that was already said, but I really want to get back to playing games :P

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So, let's talk of the usual things that I more usually see differing between pages (with examples). I'm not saying these are indeed important. But to achieve consistency every concern should be addressed.

 

[1]: Should we say to comment (and then explain what that implies) or should we just say "put semicolon, slash, double backslash"? And then should we just use words or even use {{key|;}} ?

I take this opportunity even to say how we should underline that many times, to skip intro you'd have better to try to look fist into .ini file rather than deleting/moving/renaming them straight away. Also, ironically after we looked accurately we now recommend a parameter to avoid intro in the page of the example

 

[2] Speaking of skipping video intros.. We should establish once and for all what's the recommended thing. Delete, move and/or rename?

 

[3] Uniform explanation towards the use of cmd and windows registry...

 

[4/5]... including how to make clear for really dumb people that ancestral difference which makes require that Wow6432node thingy in 64 bit systems

 

[6/7/8] Uniform .ini editing in general. As you can see different kind of approaches are used here.

 

[9] Uniform .ini files mentioning. I really love the way the .ini file is portrayed here. This way you don't have to repeat every time all the path name. And it's damn neat imo.

 

[10] Should we consider forcing something in graphics drivers as hackable or false? Because I believe 99% of games have really no problems in this and writing it every time would be annoying. Be it AA through graphics card control panel or 3d party injector, be it borderless fullscreen, be it v-sync anisotropic filter or windowed mode.

Having thought this.. I was thinking that actually windowed mode is not something so easy to hack. V-sync then should be universally possible to force, imo, whilst  AF is enforceable just in 99.999% of cases

 

[11/12] We need a partial value

 

[13] When using those lovely references, we should follow some common rules. Because I don't think that using the title in the page header is feasible every time. For example, I usually transform "Hi! :: Grand Theft Auto III General Discussions" to "Hi! :: Steam General Discussions". Other times, instead, it's just that it says "Unknown title" so you have to invent it

 

[14] Speaking of references, in the editing page it should be somewhat mentioned that (at least for older games) references in game infobox are deeply appreciated

 

[15] Aside from the usual fact that GOG always increase a hundredfold what system requirements could have been... other times it greatly underestimate them instead (and this may be valid for every other vendor too) We should showcase a standard way to underline deviances.

 

[16] Uniform fixboxes use. When there should be a space between them, when instead there should be just a common one but with two (or more) "wrenches".

While we are at it, we could even contemplate my "solution" for VC and ponder whether it could be possible to say the same amount of things with a cleaner look and in about the same space (or even less if possible!)

 

[17] Stress that workarounds are not fixes. I mean, those are nice examples of workarounds.

Albeit they practically overcome the problem and you can proceed, you technically didn't solve the real bug.

And sometimes instead I see these count as issues fixed...

 

[18] Briefly say that we don't even despise independent dubbing/subtitles/interface explanations. Of course every game will have different "capabilities" and it won't be possible to have any conceivable combination.

 

[19] Links to external resources should prefer the discussion thread instead of the direct download (as long as the former as a noob-proof link to the latter). This because if there's any problem the author will be probably more experienced than us. btw, in the example the exact opposite is being done

 

[20] Some hints about proper local file uploads. I especially appreciate how sometimes this can also really help to streamline instructions in the game page follow TTDISA link

 

[21] Explain when fixes should go inside template and when outside. I know this sound stupid but gosh, there was a discussion about this just some days ago (sorry.. for the language)

 

[22] Actually, sometimes you are required to use cracked/pirated copies mod (or even start) your legally bought game. So I'd try to word less strictly your sentences.

Edited by Mirh
finally addressed comprension problems

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[1]: Should we say to comment (and then explain what that implies) or should we just say "put semicolon, slash, double backslash"? And then should we just use words or even use {{key|;}} ?

I take this opportunity even to say how we should underline that many times, to skip intro you'd have better to try to look fist into .ini file rather than deleting/moving/renaming them straight away. Also, ironically we now recommend a parameter to avoid intro

 

[2] Speaking of skipping video intros.. We should establish once and for all what's the recommended thing. Delete, move or rename?

 

Referring to the specific symbols is preferable since the commenting symbol varies and the end result is what matters.

 

An intro skip parameter is the preferred option, or failing that moving/renaming/deleting the files. Editing a config file or replacing with blank files is the least preferable option due to the extra effort involved so should only be covered when this is the only way.

 

There is no functional difference between moving, deleting, and renaming. Renaming makes it easy to reverse the change if needed.

 

[3] Uniform explanation towards windows registry...

 

Registry hive names link to an explanation on game data, so individual game pages probably don't need to include launching instructions.

 

[11/12] We need a partial value

 

This is not currently supported so falls outside the scope of this discussion. Revive the topic if you think that discussion needs to be revisited.

 

[13] When using those lovely references, we should follow some common rules. Because I don't think that using the title in the page header is feasible every time. For example, I usually transform "Hi! :: Grand Theft Auto III General Discussions" to "Hi! :: Steam General Discussions". Other times, instead, it's just that it says "Unknown title"

 

The reference title should be the page title unless it is insufficient, e.g. Steam announcements currently don't include the name of the announcement in the page title (I add that manually at the start of the reference title).

 

[17] Stress that workarounds are not fixes.

 

This will depend on the game since some workarounds have a functionally identical end result (e.g. using a game's native borderless fullscreen mode to avoid some issue with its exclusive fullscreen mode). Determining this requires some knowledge of the game so I don't know whether there could be an overall guideline for this.

 

[22] Actually, sometimes you are required to use cracked/pirated copies mod (or even start) your legally bought game. So I'd try to word less strictly your sentences.

 

That was about listing solutions for pirated versions, not using cracks to make legitimate versions work. The cases where a crack is necessary will very much depend on the game, of course.

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An intro skip parameter is the preferred option, or failing that moving/renaming/deleting the files. Editing a config file or replacing with blank files is the least preferable option due to the extra effort involved so should only be covered when this is the only way.

Actually I find moving/deleting/renaming the least preferable option. Assuming the parameter (or an in-game setting) to control the intro doesn't exist, .ini editing should be the first fallback thing, since this way (say) Steam file check won't be triggered by the change of the game resources.

There is no functional difference between moving, deleting, and renaming. Renaming makes it easy to reverse the change if needed.

Sure. So should we use a comma or a slash between them? Or should we say just rename?

Or is there any word that could vaguely replace these three words altogether?

 

Registry hive names link to an explanation on game data, so individual game pages probably don't need to include launching instructions.

I reworded it better now. What I meant was the actual part where you say: open cmd, open regedit.

Moreover even if the registry hive names link to game data, the usual noob won't intuitively think that there's that extra caveat that is the wow6432node thingy

 

This will depend on the game since some workarounds have a functionally identical end result (e.g. using a game's native borderless fullscreen mode to avoid some issue with its exclusive fullscreen mode). Determining this requires some knowledge of the game so I don't know whether there could be an overall guideline for this.

I reworded this point better too.

 

That was about listing solutions for pirated versions, not using cracks to make legitimate versions work. The cases where a crack is necessary will very much depend on the game, of course.

Actually, what I read is "Please do not add in links or information specific to pirated or cracked copies of a game". This, imo, seems to include even this fair use.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I even found an additional point

 

[23] Possibly mention how to test surround sound (even if you have just a single speaker) and... possibly even EAX

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking now of the actual guide, I think the following could be improved:

 

"This ensures that in the case of a browser crash, work is not lost."  Actually, Firefox already saved my life tens of times. I can even save & quit it while still retaining my edit. So this may be mentioned (idk for other browsers)

 

Spelling check. You might want to suggest browser built-in spelling check. This page add them to firefox for example

 

Then, what's the practical difference between Alt+Prt Scr and Prt Scr ? "On Windows, pressing Alt+Prt Scr will capture the active window only."

 

And as I already complained once I find silly to recommend FRAPS every damn time. I mean, is there anything that it can do better than, say MSI afterburner? I'm not against alternatives, but if it's free and it has everything that the former has... why this?

 

"Screenshots should be taken at the native resolution of the monitor." Why this? Swkotor would look awkward with its huge bezels on the sides.

 

"Screenshots should show only what the game natively supports. Avoid screenshots of the game with unofficial patches or mods."  I would say, unless it's an essential improvement.

 

"[...] all screenshots should be taken with possibly keyboard/mouse prompts visible or gamepad prompts visible but not both." What do you think?

 

"If the cursor cannot be hidden completely, move it as far off to the corner as possible."  ... or take different screenshots with the cursor in different places and merge them. Besides, I believe that if you move the cursor as much as you can on the bottom right corner of your monitor it disappear.

 

"Before editing, make a backup of [...]" I don't know.. should we really tell this? Is there really a serious danger? And shouldn't -if this is the case- this be already part of "can operate a computer at a basic level" knowledge and common sense?

 

"If a fix requires a particular class of program (ex. hex editors).." ... then maybe we would have better to have a page for that particular operation that requires that class of programs. We could then link the words "hex editor" or "UNIX-aware/advanced text editor" to this page (so that the correspondent for every OS can be specified too)

 

"If a fix requires major configuration file modifications (>10 changed lines).. " I feel stupid all of a sudden

 

"Once extracted, open <File Y-2> with <program name> or other <program type>." I believe the 2 things are mutually exclusive (so a slash or brackets may underline this), because you either recommend a specific program (which I guess will be the only one existing for that game) or a class of programs (like above)

Besides, I would propose a list of file that ideally we should say nothing about their opening. I mean.. .txt and .ini are the first two examples that come to my mind.

 

"Use the (Insert command here) command line argument" Should we say command line arguments, or parameter, or switch or..?

 

"Do not list game engine middleware (ex. Havok Physics) under the Engines section" This always make me sad

 

"The |winehq = field is meant for [...]"  You may explain you can find the application id here

 

"While not common, fan games and major mods for a series can be added in if it is worth mentioning." Interesting point....

 

"Games using a digital distribution service (ex. Steam) will have that service act as the DRM." Not so fast. And this should be really underlined.

 

"Major community mods" This can mean a lot of things. Imo, if this mean something unavoidable to have an hassle-free experience it's fine there (i.e. Unofficial patches for The Elder of Scrools games, SilentPatch for GTA, installers alternatives for 64 bit systems..). But if it's "just" a total conversion (like ViceCityStories PC Edition) even if really major, I guess it's better to list in other information section

The same also applies for game-specfic utilities

 

Speaking of the Video Settings.. contrarily to the way WSGF classifies widescreen status... if a game has a stretched image... couldn't we say "widescreen" is true, whilst "quality" is unsupported?

 

Speaking of the Audio settings instead... I feel like EAX support property should have the name changed, with something more generic. I mean... or maybe we should specify OpenAL and Aureal 3D support somewhere else (API ?)

 

And while looking at Direct IP row... I was thinking... is pressing a button to open the console really so clunky to deserve hackable tag? :/

 

"(released on September 10, 2009)" This may be a bit misleading since it almost seem like in this date the 5000 series began and ended

 

And last but not least, where should we list something like these. I mean, they are not the usual confined fixes and are almost essential sometimes

 

EDIT: more on the middleware/engine/suite distinction

Edited by Mirh

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Do I add the current developers and publishers, or do I also add the previous developers and publishers, along with the current developers. What if a certain developer/publisher renamed itself to something else, should both entries be kept or should the new name be used instead?

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Developer/publisher name would be as used for the release; names redirects to the latest ones where applicable, so the company pages are filled with all the appropriate games from across any name changes.

 

In the case of a game being re-published or whatever you would use the last name that company used for that release (since both are the same).

 

In cases where development has moved to a different company the status can be indicated in the second parameter (e.g. Former and Current).

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I've been trying to make a redirect for one of the publisher pages, but I don't know how to get out of the publisher form editor.

 

Also should English always be the very first language in the localization tables? Wouldn't it sometimes be better if the list was ordered alphabetically?

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If you click the "Go back to viewing" link you'll get to a regular page which you can then edit to make into a redirect.

 

English has currently been always put at the top of the language list as on other sites. It looks like the positioning issue was last discussed last year around when the localisation template was implemented.

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Mirh:

"This ensures that in the case of a browser crash, work is not lost."  
Actually, Firefox already saved my life tens of times. I can even save & quit it while still retaining my edit. So this may be mentioned (idk for other browsers)

Most browsers do not support this feature. Either way, the current instructions are good practice. Don't always rely on auto-save.

Spelling check. You might want to suggest browser built-in spelling check. This page add them to firefox for example

Then, what's the practical difference between Alt+Prt Scr and Prt Scr ? "On Windows, pressing Alt+Prt Scr will capture the active window only."

I'll make sure to mention these at some point.

And as I already complained once I find silly to recommend FRAPS every damn time. I mean, is there anything that it can do better than, say MSI afterburner? I'm not against alternatives, but if it's free and it has everything that the former has... why this?

I put FRAPS as an option to at least give people some choices for screen capture utilities. Can MSI Afterburner even be used for non-MSI builds?

"[...] all screenshots should be taken with possibly keyboard/mouse prompts visible or gamepad prompts visible but not both." What do you think?

There should be no preference on in-game prompts.

"If the cursor cannot be hidden completely, move it as far off to the corner as possible."  ... or take different screenshots with the cursor in different places and merge them. Besides, I believe that if you move the cursor as much as you can on the bottom right corner of your monitor it disappear.

There are some games where the cursor simply cannot be hidden for one reason or the other. There's also no reason to be asking people to do extra work just to hide a cursor.

"Before editing, make a backup of [...]" I don't know.. should we really tell this? Is there really a serious danger? And shouldn't -if this is the case- this be already part of "can operate a computer at a basic level" knowledge and common sense?

Yes we should. This is something that can be overlooked by new editors. Never assume that they can "figure it out" or "already know it".

"Once extracted, open <File Y-2> with <program name> or other <program type>." I believe the 2 things are mutually exclusive (so a slash or brackets may underline this), because you either recommend a specific program (which I guess will be the only one existing for that game) or a class of programs (like above)
Besides, I would propose a list of file that ideally we should say nothing about their opening. I mean.. .txt and .ini are the first two examples that come to my mind.

Again, never assume that people can "figure it out" or "already know it". Regardless of the file, we need to mention how to open it.

 

 

"Use the (Insert command here) command line argument" Should we say command line arguments, or parameter, or switch or..?

It's command line arguments.

 

 

"The |winehq = field is meant for [...]"  You may explain you can find the application id here

I'll add a field breakdown for the infoboxes at some point.

 

 

"Games using a digital distribution service (ex. Steam) will have that service act as the DRM." Not so fast. And this should be really underlined.

I state this because almost all digital distribution services require the game to be downloaded and played via their client. Regardless of if the game has DRM or not, forcing the use of a central client is still DRM (abit a minor one).

 

 

Speaking of the Video Settings.. contrarily to the way WSGF classifies widescreen status... if a game has a stretched image... couldn't we say "widescreen" is true, whilst "quality" is unsupported?

Stretched widescreen is not true widescreen. Set the field to "false" and state that it is stretched.

 

 

Speaking of the Audio settings instead... I feel like EAX support property should have the name changed, with something more generic. I mean... or maybe we should specify OpenAL and Aureal 3D support somewhere else (API ?)

EAX is a library that used to be present in many games and deserves its own field. OpenAL and Aureal 3D, not so much. No need to change things, the Middleware table already handles that.

 

 

And while looking at Direct IP row... I was thinking... is pressing a button to open the console really so clunky to deserve hackable tag? :/

Yes. If it's not present in the regular UI, then it's "hackable".

 

 

"(released on September 10, 2009)" This may be a bit misleading since it almost seem like in this date the 5000 series began and ended

More context on the quote?

 

 

And last but not least, where should we list something like these. I mean, they are not the usual confined fixes and are almost essential sometimes

Essential improvements (only if there are other fixes that require modifying encrypted files).

 

(BTW, hit the quote limit halfway through. Had to use codeboxes to keep things organized).

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Speaking of the Video Settings.. contrarily to the way WSGF classifies widescreen status... if a game has a stretched image... couldn't we say "widescreen" is true, whilst "quality" is unsupported?

 

A stretched output is always considered incorrect for both WSGF and PCGamingWiki (there may be some erroneous entries but this is the intended handling).

 

WSGF rates based on whether the output has the correct aspect ratio whereas PCGamingWiki has been rating based on whether the game actually uses the extra screen space correctly. As a result, games that have the correct aspect ratio with pillarboxing (black borders on either side) will be rated differently between the two sites.

 

And as I already complained once I find silly to recommend FRAPS every damn time. I mean, is there anything that it can do better than, say MSI afterburner? I'm not against alternatives, but if it's free and it has everything that the former has... why this?

I put FRAPS as an option to at least give people some choices for screen capture utilities. Can MSI Afterburner even be used for non-MSI builds?

 

MSI Afterburner is not specific to their cards. Multiple program suggestions are crucial because there are various games that don't work with FRAPS but do work in MSI Afterburner (or vice versa). I don't know of a program that works with every game.

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Key points are a bit unclear to me, I never know if I am always using them correctly.

 

Could some actual examples be added to the editing guide? Are certain keypoints redundant? I don't really have any examples to show right now.

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And as I already complained once I find silly to recommend FRAPS every damn time. I mean, is there anything that it can do better than, say MSI afterburner? I'm not against alternatives, but if it's free and it has everything that the former has... why this?

I put FRAPS as an option to at least give people some choices for screen capture utilities. Can MSI Afterburner even be used for non-MSI builds?

It's not like I put links just for fun.

MSI Afterburner is not specific to their cards. Multiple program suggestions are crucial because there are various games that don't work with FRAPS but do work in MSI Afterburner (or vice versa). I don't know of a program that works with every game.

Actually, rivatuner has a heap of settings to display the overlay in every conceivable part of the rendering chain.

So I still don't see a point for fraps.

 

"Before editing, make a backup of [...]" I don't know.. should we really tell this? Is there really a serious danger? And shouldn't -if this is the case- this be already part of "can operate a computer at a basic level" knowledge and common sense?

Yes we should. This is something that can be overlooked by new editors. Never assume that they can "figure it out" or "already know it".

I'm not saying they should already know they have to take a backup. I'm saying they shouldn't take any at all (except maybe some really doubtful solution for example)

 

If instructions clearly state edit "bSmoothframerate".. That's it, the right thing to do is already there.

If you can mistake this.. I'm sorry for you but you'd have better to call someone else for help.

 

I state this because almost all digital distribution services require the game to be downloaded and played via their client. Regardless of if the game has DRM or not, forcing the use of a central client is still DRM (abit a minor one).

God may forgive soeb for that time it closed a such debated thread...

Anyway as I said.. Speaking of games that do not require the client: what consumer's right would it violate?

You still can play it wherever you like, without any background program, driver or online connection.

 

It's command line arguments.

Wikipedia thinks differently.

 

More context on the quote?

CTRL+F :*

 

Anyway, I was referring to the fact that ATI HD 5000 series products continued to be released for at least half a year after the initial presentation of the flagships

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Actually, rivatuner has a heap of settings to display the overlay in every conceivable part of the rendering chain.

So I still don't see a point for fraps.

Again, I put FRAPS in there to give people a choice between utilities. I'll add MSI Afterburner as an option later on.

 

 

I'm not saying they should already know they have to take a backup. I'm saying they shouldn't take any at all (except maybe some really doubtful solution for example)

 

If instructions clearly state edit "bSmoothframerate".. That's it, the right thing to do is already there.

If you can mistake this.. I'm sorry for you but you'd have better to call someone else for help.

Whenever modifying files, it is ALWAYS a good idea to make a backup of it. There is still a chance that things can break, even if the person follows instructions exactly.

 

It is simply good practice. There should be no argument here.

 

God may forgive soeb for that time it closed a such debated thread...

Anyway as I said.. Speaking of games that do not require the client: what consumer's right would it violate?

You still can play it wherever you like, without any background program, driver or online connection.

I'm not going to start arguing the philosophical aspects of what's DRM with you. I honestly have no interest in that debate.

 

For the sake of simplicity, the rule stays as is.

 

Wikipedia thinks differently.

Command line arguments is already the standard name used in the wiki. Unless anyone else believes differently, it stays as is.

 

CTRL+F :*

 

Anyway, I was referring to the fact that ATI HD 5000 series products continued to be released for at least half a year after the initial presentation of the flagships

I'm fully aware of CTRL+F. I'm asking you for context because the quote you provided tells me nothing about what you are referring to. You don't have to be an asshole about it.

 

Anyways, I put the date there to give people an idea of the cutoff point where ATI becomes AMD. It doesn't matter how long the product line was being sold.

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