pcgw not allowing me to add to discussion or propose edits on incorrect information

[ajsglist 0]

I was looking at setting up "Nobody Saves the World" today, and PCGW claims it supports borderless windowed mode.  It does not.  I attempted to submit this information as an edit in various places in the discussion page, but this account doesn't have permission to do so.  I'm not really sure how you expect people to contribute to the wiki and correct misinformation such as this.  Regardless, here is the reposted original comment:

 

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I have directly confirmed just now that borderless window mode is NOT supported.  The game has 3 support options:  Window (standard window mode), fullscreen (standard fullscreen exclusive mode at the default detected values for the output monitor), and "custom" which is a fullscreen exclusive mode at a specific user-selected resolution/refresh rate.

There is NO borderless window support.  The game requires 3rd party software for borderless window output (e.g. Windowed Borderless Gaming, etc)

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{{Edit request}}

[BaronSmoki 3]

Hi, anyone with a valid account should be able to edit that article. Have you been able to successfully make any PCGW edits? If not, there is probably a problem with your account that we can help you fix.

[BaronSmoki 3]

By the way, I just tested out the game, and it definitely has borderless. The game just calls the borderless option "fullscreen".

"Custom" is the only exclusive fullscreen mode.

[ajsglist 0]

The only edit/discussion I tried to make was as described, and I was prevented from sending it in on this account.

 

Regardless, I have just confirmed once more that "fullscreen" is not borderless window mode.  The window will self-minimize whenever anything else is clicked which is not how borderless window mode works.  If you are calling this borderless window mode, it should be made clear it is not a functional version of borderless window mode.  It is mimicing exclusive fullscreen and as such does not support true borderless window mode.

[ajsglist 0]

If there's something that needs to be done, please let me know.  But it's been another 10 days and the PCGW entry for Nobody Saves the World still incorrectly lists Borderless Window support.  For the reasons discussed here, it should be amended to "unsupported" since there is no functional borderless window mode.

 

Thanks

[Aemony 142]

On 12/20/2023 at 12:49 AM, ajsglist said:

Regardless, I have just confirmed once more that "fullscreen" is not borderless window mode.  The window will self-minimize whenever anything else is clicked which is not how borderless window mode works.  If you are calling this borderless window mode, it should be made clear it is not a functional version of borderless window mode.  It is mimicing exclusive fullscreen and as such does not support true borderless window mode.

This is irrelevant, actually.

The only thing that matters in regards to FSE (Fullscreen Exclusive) and borderless window on PCGW is whether the game attempts to take "ownership" of the display or not. That is the key difference between the two modes.

How a game handles a loss of window focus, and whether it minimizes itself or not in that case, is beside the point.

Also note that our row is called "Borderless fullscreen windowed" -- whether the game supports a non-fullscreen borderless window state is also irrelevant.

So to summarize:

* "Borderless fullscreen windowed" on PCGW tracks whether the game has a display state that's a) a window, b) borderless, c) maximized/fullscreen/covers the whole display, d) does not attempt to take ownership of the display (FSE; causes display mode switches, enforces its own display resoltuon, alt+tabbing is slow, etc).

* "Windowed" on PCGW tracks whether the game has a display state for a regular non-maximized bordered window.

* "Fullscreen Exclusive (FSE)" is not actually tracked at all on PCGW.

Borderless window modes attempting to "mimic" proper Fullscreen Exclusive (FSE) modes are still tracked as "borderless fullscreen windowed" as long as it doesn't attempt to take ownership of the display. A borderless fullscreen windowed game can otherwise do whatever it wants when it operates and gains/loses focus -- as long as it doesn't attempt to take exclusive ownership of the display, it will be treated as the borderless fullscreen window display state it is.

[ajsglist 0]

With all due respect, this does not function as borderless window and you're being rather indirect with my concerns.

 

Is it not your expectation that people should be using PCGW to help setup and troubleshoot issues with software?  If so, it should be obvious that categorizing a defective borderless window mode that mimics FSE as a proper borderless window mode is unhelpful.  When it is so deficient as to not serve its function, this is the exact situation your wiki exists to prevent.

 

It's also worth noting that you have a comment section where this information should should be included by any reasonable standard.

[Aemony 142]

6 hours ago, ajsglist said:

When it is so deficient as to not serve its function

People who use the wiki expect different things, and what you might expect from one feature is not the same expectations others has. As I mentioned earlier on PCGW the only thing that matters when it comes to the "Borderless fullscreen windowed" parameter is if it can be played in a borderless maximized window -- nothing else.

I do not know the details of how you expect a "borderless window" to function since you have not opted to provide such information. It's also a bit confusing since you mostly talk about a "borderless window" which is technically not fullscreen and is, in fact, in reality another display mode entirely that some might also find useful which PCGW also does not track.

What I can state, after my own testing of this game, is that BaronSmoki is correct in that its Fullscreen mode is a borderless fullscreen window mode. It actually engages true Fullscreen Exclusive on launch, but only for a short while before transitioning to borderless fullscren window (probably after having read the user configuration). After that, yes, it's a borderless fullscreen window mode that just so also happens to minimize on Alt+Tab.

You may not agree with our definition of the mode as we currently track it, and that's fine. But as it stands we also don't see any reason to change the definition either.

[ajsglist 0]

>People who use the wiki expect different things, and what you might expect from one feature is not the same expectations others has. As I mentioned earlier on PCGW the only thing that matters when it comes to the "Borderless fullscreen windowed" parameter is if it can be played in a borderless maximized window -- nothing else.

I don't understand how this isn't contradictory. I've raised an issue where a supposed "borderless windowed" mode is deficient in numerous respects -- which were already articulated (self-minimize on focus lost -- not standard borderless window behavior and having nothing to do with alt-tabbing).  I've also articulated that i went to this page to troubleshoot the deficient borderless windowed mode, which your page claims works flawlessly without any issues.  I have demonstrated issues quite plainly, and I think your view here is overly myopic.

Certainly there must be some limit to where you would make a note that the mode is not functional.  What if a program "supports" borderless windowed mode, but crashes every time focus is lost?  You're telling me that's not noteworthy on PCGW?  What if a program "supports" borderless windowed mode yet has a 0.96 opacity solid black overlay when enabled?  Again, there must be reasonable limits for where we can agree you aren't meeting basic needs as a wiki.  This is certainly one such case.

[Aemony 142]

A game that minimizes on Alt+Tab when running in borderless fullscreen window mode is not noteworthy enough to note, sadly. There is a surprising enough number of games that does that -- I think it even was a default behavior in the Unity engine for quite awhile.

[ajsglist 0]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:24 AM, Aemony said:

A game that minimizes on Alt+Tab when running in borderless fullscreen window mode is not noteworthy enough to note, sadly. There is a surprising enough number of games that does that -- I think it even was a default behavior in the Unity engine for quite awhile.

You should reread this, because you clearly have misunderstood.  Self-minization on lost focus is not the same as alt-tabbing. You have the tools to provide this information and are refusing to do so.

Regardless, the entire point of this thread is you are intentionally omitting mandatory troubleshooting information.  We have established this is not default Borderless Window behavior.  This is the exact troubleshooting information people come to PCGW for.  You are intentionally making your site useless for troubleshooting and setup.

Very concerning response. 

[Aemony 142]

Okay, that's enough. I have tried to be approachable, but clearly that's not working here since you continue to ignore what I've already explained multiple times.

Just to set the record straight:

• I am not misunderstanding anything. Minimizing on focus lost is the same as minimizing when alt+tabbing -- the root cause is the fact that the application loses focus state/foreground window and responds by minimizing.
• We have not established that such a behaviour is not the "default" borderless window behaviour. In fact, the only thing we've established is, as I've multiple times mentioned, that that specific behavior is entirely irrelevant to PCGW's definition of what constitutes a borderless fullscreen window and what we track as part of our row. This have been told to you repeatedly. We have never had a "does not minimize when loses focus/foreground state" requirement attached to that row in the 12 years the site have existed.
• And as I mentioned earlier: "You may not agree with our definition of the mode as we currently track it, and that's fine. But as it stands we also don't see any reason to change the definition either."

You should now be well informed of what our row track, and so be able to use the site accordingly as well.