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ab5000

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  1. I could well be misreading "games with no speech or text-only dialogue" as being "games with no speech or (games with text-only dialogue)", but if so then quite a few other people here seem to be doing the same as I've seen more than a few mis-tagged titles based on that. Perhaps it could be better clarified as "For games with no in-game dialogue..."? As an example of another incorrectly tagged game, Ben There Dan That = a game with no speech track, just always-on text-only subtitles, yet both Audio & Localization subtitle sections are tagged as N/A. Clearly it has English subtitles. And the Table Legend Guidelines description for N/A ("This concept does not apply to this type of game") makes N/A an incorrect choice as the concept of requiring in-game text to describe speech due to a lack of an audio track is precisely what the concept of a "subtitle" is. The "N/A" description as you described for Localization seems accurate for dialogue-less games, but the way it's worded under Audio and the fact it needs to be filled in twice under two different sections (with two different values depending on how you read the "or") leading some to copy / paste seems to be what's causing a lot of confusion to the extent some games end up giving the exact opposite information of what the subtitle tables on Steam & GOG do. In fact I've always found the two subtitles & closed captions settings in "Audio" completely redundant as immediately below you've got a table spelling out the same information in less vague forum (eg, maybe CC is only for one language and not another) and am left wondering how much less confusion there would be if all subtitle / CC information was included in just one Localization section under one definition instead of having half of the same info split across two separate sections? All the Subtitle & CC fields under Audio have really said is "scroll down 4 lines", and there seems to be no equivalent duplication in other sections, eg, "DRM-Free version available?" 4 lines above the "Availability" section showing the same info wouldn't add anything. There's got to be some underlying reason why half the "this game has subtitles but no speech track" games here are arbitrarily tagged as "n/a" and the other half more accurately as "true" for games that have subtitles in plain sight in the screenshots on GOG / Steam stores. The amount of incorrect "N/A" subtitle tagging though seems far out of proportion to say rare 64 vs 32 bit .EXE mistakes or mislabelled Ultrawide support. Anyway "Accessibility related stuff works best when kept as simple as possible under one section" is just a bit of feedback from someone who's been a long-time lurker to the site, not a personal attack on anyone / anything here.
  2. Apologies for bumping an old topic but as a hearing impaired gamer I find attempting to contribute to editing the Audio / Localization sections incredibly frustrating and this thread is still more relevant than ever. The editing guide seems highly contradictory in recommending simultaneously both "n/a" under Audio Settings and "True" under Localization settings for games that have text-only speech (no spoken voice), eg, a point & click adventure on the grounds that "if audio is removed then a subtitle stops being a subtitle". Aside from the fact literally everyone thinks "subtitles are non-applicable to this game" means games completely devoid of any conversation & story (eg, puzzle games like Solitaire, Minesweeper, Lemmings, Chess, etc, where the nature of the game-play means there's simply nothing there to subtitle), what's worse is the guide recommending "n/a" for Audio-Subtitle (for games with subtitles) seems to lead to some games incorrectly tagged under Localization. Eg, Don't Escape 4 Days To Survive has "unknown" for Audio-Subtitle, but also "n/a" under individual Localizations, suggesting that existing editors already leave subtitle under Audio blank in many games (because they don't see the point in duplicating what's already in plain sight in the full Localization section underneath), but also that the editing guidelines are accidentally encouraging people into putting the wrong thing in the wrong section. And giving the false impression that the game is somehow "conversation-less". ...On top of that the List of Games That Support Subtitles / Closed Captioning are both broken... https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_games_that_support_subtitles https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_games_that_support_closed_captioning ...And on top of that, the Sample Article is also contradictory: "This game has subtitles but subtitles are not applicable to this game" makes absolutely zero sense to everyone I've shown it to as a description of anything meaningful rather than "The Correct Way Of Ticking A Box (tm)"... I kinda "get" the attempted logic behind "well if there's no spoken speech, then technically what's shown instead isn't a 'subtitle' it's just text", but most hearing impaired gamers in reality specifically search for "true" for subtitle / CC / text under Localization and care far more about whether it's likely to be playable than have to do multiple repeat searches (one for n/a, one for True, maybe even yet another for forced on, then repeat twice over under two different sections (Audio-Subtitles vs Localization-Sub) due to an arbitrary distinction of "someone saying something in text in a game without spoken audio vs subtitles for games with spoken audio are two completely different things". It seems better to do away with unnecessarily duplicated subtitles settings under Audio and just keep a simple list UI / Audio / Text where the same information is conveyed far more clearly as to who can find the game playable or not, with additional advanced information (eg, "missing in some cutscenes" or "forced on") being the stuff the "Notes" section was invented for? tl:dr: It's an accessibility nightmare when the combination of no working links to a list of games with subtitles / CC, plus guidelines that lead to contradictory tagging (even in the sample article) make it far harder for disabled gamers to find the answer to what should be a very simple yes / no question of "Is this game going to be playable to me without audio?". The above example Don't Escape 4 Days To Survive should clearly convey the information "This game has UI & subtitles in English, German and Polish, but no spoken audio" in one simple box, just like it does on Steam & GOG without the added confusion of "well it has subtitles in place of speech... but we don't call them subtitles because of lack of spoken audio... sort of..."
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