Rose

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It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to see a game with subtitles set to n/a for when all of the dialogue is text-based. Say I'm hearing impaired or I want to play a game at work but remain aware of the real world around me, or have any other reason to not want to hear any dialogue - I may use the wiki to look for games that have subtitles. If we had a list for such games, I would naturally sort to highlight the ones set to true, not something as obscure as n/a. You may convince me otherwise, but the real question is whether it would be as apparent to a newcomer. Besides, by dictionary definition subtitles do not have to accompany any voiced dialogue. One of the two Merriam-Webster definitions for subtitle is

It certainly wouldn't be right to just convert the n/a to true. I'm not sure if this is what you referred to on Discord, but there are editors that take n/a as "not available", which would mean a large number of those pages may need to have it set to false. As with the new "always on" and "limited" options, the way to go would be to just revisit the pages or replay the games to make adjustments. Moreover, this incorrect understanding of the meaning behind n/a and thus the presumably large amount of articles being misleading would make it of little use in a list of games for hearing-impaired players. On the numbers, I would assume the number of games where AA or Vsync is set to true is even larger than 16756, and it's unknown how many of those should be at "always on" or "limited" but the number alone didn't get in the way of implementing the new properties, so I don't think it should be used as an argument against recommending to set subtitles to true for text-based games. As it stands now, the n/a property for text-based games is almost always accompanied with a note to actually explain what it means which suggests there's something wrong with its application, so I don't see the less common scenario of a primarily text-based game with some voiced dialogue as an obstacle - it can be explained with a note too.

The case of Chaosbane is confusing because there were reports by people buying the standard edition and playing it on the 31st. In general, I don't think it's of much value to have a separate field for games that have this type of pre-order early access. Even if we do implement it, unless we name it "pre-order release date" or something as clear, we'd still need notes on how the date is tied to pre-orders only, and this need for extra notes means we might as well just keep delivering this information through notes only. I don't think it's that common to offer early access as part of pre-orders but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm okay with the idea and I don't think PCGW will miss out on anything if those links are removed. When adding a link to an article I'm thinking of whether it would be valuable to a potential reader and how much weight there is to it. There's no universal approach, because linking a wiki or a subreddit for a game released on the EGS with no official platforms to offer is of different value compared to adding it to a game that is on Steam, where the Steam Discussions and Guides platforms are commonly used to achieve the same purpose as that of a subreddit or a wiki, to name a few. I don't think the discussion started over the presumed confusion between official vs community. It was Aemony asking about the more appropriate wording for a non-official wiki - "community" (used by me) vs "unofficial" (used by Aemony). It's of no essence but my argument for and reasoning behind the word "community" is purely based on the guidelines and commonly used words in the articles - GOG.com Community Discussions, Steam Community Discussions, and especially Community wikis - all taken from Key points and General information. The word "unofficial" isn't even used on the page.

RoseToday at 7:26 PM https://pcgamingwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Warhammer:_Chaosbane&diff=788235&oldid=788229 had to undo these by SirYodaJedi PCGamingWiki Index.php?title=Warhammer: Chaosbane&diff=788235&oldid=788229 Warhammer: Chaosbane at PCGamingWiki - bugs, fixes, crashes, mods, guides and improvements for every PC game. I don't see how setting surround sound to always on just because it's there is of help there are no clear disadvantages to how most games do surround sound - simply by using all the speakers, with no toggle AemonyToday at 7:41 PM @Rose always on is the proper value to use when the game supports surround sound but does not expose an option to configure it manually The color is simply because it's neither true nor false, and should not be either Blue was thrown around as another color, but was discarded because of hackable already using it RoseToday at 7:43 PM has any surround sound user ever complained about not being able to switch to 2.0 through the game UI? AemonyToday at 7:44 PM That's not the point. It's to separate games between those that require manual configuration to enable it, or those that automatically configures themselves, basically The use of always on on AA parameter is for a similar purpose RoseToday at 7:45 PM wasn't it created to suggest something is limiting? for surround sound it's not AemonyToday at 7:45 PM No It was created to suggest that something is always on We already have limited for rows with limited support etc RoseToday at 7:46 PM was surround sound specifically discussed? AemonyToday at 7:46 PM This is separate from that It was one of the parameters @Garrett added support for and mentioned in another channel https://discordapp.com/channels/165183350913499136/326048443040530432/586102001679597578 The editing guide have been updated to reflect its use in the case of surround sound as well RoseToday at 7:50 PM alright, I see the new description and I don't generally disagree on it. then the issue would lie in the unified color that looks like it's for something limiting or for a half-measure, while I'd bet for surround users it's the desired behavior AemonyToday at 7:50 PM @SirYodaJedi's edits to the Warhammer article seems in line with the new always on state if there is no built-in toggle for that game for either AA, surround sound, or subtitles The color is easily changed, and will probably be changed. It was taken because it was easily available after SuicideMachine used it for his limited icon for the platform features overview RoseToday at 7:51 PM no wonder it looks limiting! Yoda's change to the subs row is not correct at all, per the reason I stated in the edit description AemonyToday at 7:53 PM Always enabled at the cutscenes and dialogue.[5] I assume there's no option to disable subs? RoseToday at 7:53 PM the characters speak beyond dialogue when they're out of energy and such no subs for it AemonyToday at 7:53 PM If so, then set it to always on and make a note about how some phrases don't have subs Games typically includes random phrases and stuff here and there that might not have subtitles What's important is whether the important stuff have subs or not https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/topic/4103-overhaul-of-the-editing-guide/?tab=comments PCGamingWiki PCGW Community Overhaul of the editing guide? A long conversation between multiple PCGW staff members and PCGW community members on the official PCGW Discord brought up a good suggestion: overhaul the editing guide. Ive taken the liberty of putting the chat log below, as it introduces the topic much more effectively than... There's the thread that touches upon clarifying a lot of what the rows actually meant and how users are supposed to approach them, etc My last reply from 3 hours ago introduced a first draft of trying to (as much as possible) separate parameters into "The game support XXXX" and "An option is available XXXX" to make it clearer whether it's supposed to be set based on whether a game supports the use of something or has a toggle to configure something The subtitles row would basically become An option is available to toggle subtitles for dialogue and conversations in the game or something similar, which would mean always on would dictate that subs are available, but can't be disabled RoseToday at 8:06 PM the icon really needs to be changed urgently if it's to be used so widely, because most of the time it will not point at limits or half-measures associated with the color yellow and further confounded by the lock icon AemonyToday at 8:16 PM Any suggestions for an alternative color scheme? RoseToday at 8:18 PM why was it decided against green? AemonyToday at 8:19 PM Having it "green" suggests that whatever it is that's locked "always on" is positive, which typically isn't the case, such as with these: - Mouse acceleration/smoothing being locked to always on. - Anti-aliasing being locked to always on. - Subtitles/Closed captions being locked to always on.  etc.  always on should be neutral, as it can be either "positive" or "negative" depending on the scenario RoseToday at 8:23 PM for surround sound it's predominately if not always positive. for subtitles it's neutral indeed but not limiting. I don't think you had games like Chaosbane in mind when that example was used. it's not a movie or text always appearing on the screen. it's very situational. for AA and smoothing that may be the case, but for AA it depends on the implementation - whether it makes the game look blurrier AemonyToday at 8:24 PM We can't use separate colors for the setting based on the parameter involved, hence we are going for a generic color that can be applied across all The current "green-brownish" color have the benefit of being partially based in brown, which apparently is the color you get if you mix green + red together RoseToday at 8:26 PM most games support surround sound, and something visibly different would needlessly highlight the row AemonyToday at 8:26 PM And it's appropriately lame Any color change would have that effect It's a minor threshold in the long run that only exist when a new state is introduced RoseToday at 8:27 PM so keeping it green wouldn't. the lock would say enough to those interested AemonyToday at 8:27 PM There's more issues with keeping it green (it's not neutral as it needs to be) than not Keeping it green is not an option It would end up with more OMG PCGW THINKS FORCED MOUSE ACCELERATION IS A GOOD THING!!! than having it the current color I'd prefer blue myself, but as mentioned it clashes somewhat with the hackable state The opposite of the color blue is apparently orange, but having it orange separates it even more than its current green-brownish color RoseToday at 8:35 PM it shouldn't be at the cost of implying surround sound or subtitles are bad things. you can poll surround sound users and I don't think they'll ever say it's a bad / limiting / questionable thing to have a game use all their speakers and offer no toggle yellow is commonly seen as a warning color, across the world there's nothing warning about surround sound being that way AemonyToday at 8:36 PM It's neither yellow, orange, or red though It's green-brownish RoseToday at 8:36 PM let me get that color picker :smile: AemonyToday at 8:36 PM Anyway, you can't merely focus on a single parameter and argue the semantics of the use of said color for that particular parameter We use general colors applied across multiple parameters, and needs something that encompasses all possiblities as much as possible I can bring up that we shouldn't use RED for the color FALSE since No Mouse Acceleration option available or present IS NOT NEGATIVE all day, but we're not going to change the color of all FALSE values to green simply because having no mouse acceleration present in a game is generally considered a good thing among PC gamers RoseToday at 8:38 PM https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327384491343478784/586217373736894479/unknown.png AemonyToday at 8:39 PM 63.1 green vs. 62.7 red Almost properly balanced https://tenor.com/view/perfectly-balanced-thanos-gif-13078930 RoseToday at 8:40 PM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow#Visibility_and_caution Yellow Yellow is the color between orange and green on the spectrum of visible light. It is evoked by light with a dominant wavelength of roughly 570–590 nm. It is a primary color in subtractive color systems, used in painting or color printing. In the RGB color model, used to cre... poll the surround sound users though :smile: AemonyToday at 8:41 PM I am one, I am well aware that it's not seen as a negative thing But again, general application is of importance here Unless you have better alternative colors than green to to suggest then the current color will most likely stand for now since Andy also gave its approval in the forum thread It's appropriately "meh" and balanced between green and red that it can serve well enough for now RoseToday at 8:46 PM the wiki really needs global RfCs for this type of stuff so that a decision of this scope doesn't revolve around just one or two people RoseToday at 8:53 PM I get the need for it and the color for AA and mouse acceleration but the rest seems like an afterthought affecting hundreds of pages and viewers AemonyToday at 8:56 PM There's too many scenarios and edge cases to account for every single thing. At one point or another you'll just have to jump in and tidy up the minor issues that might arise after. As it stands, the color of the icon is hardly an issue beyond the initial notice that it will cause readers before they get used to it AndytizerToday at 8:57 PM I think the yellow colour is good MarioysikaxToday at 8:59 PM wait, does the template insertion now insert current date automagically? AemonyToday at 8:59 PM Yes MarioysikaxToday at 9:01 PM I love this AemonyToday at 9:03 PM You're welcome :smile: RoseToday at 9:03 PM where Aemony sees people angry about mouse acceleration being green and surround sound users being edge cases, I see that most people don't even notice the blur of AA, they don't know what mouse acceleration is, but if they're surround sound users, I can imagine them being angry at the notion of something cautionary or neutral about games automatically adjusting to their setup AemonyToday at 9:03 PM Even inserts your username for refuser templates something cautionary >_< RoseToday at 9:04 PM I demonstrated it with the wiki link AemonyToday at 9:04 PM Tell them to read the legend for the icon then, and they would understand its purpose RoseToday at 9:07 PM the same could be said for it being green and applied to AA, and you'd have even more success because you'd argue with the lock icon in hand AemonyToday at 9:08 PM Guys? You see that green lock? Well, that means you can't disable AA! Isn't that GOOD! Again though, these sorts of changes aren't implemented to cater to certain use cases or scenarios or groups of people RoseToday at 9:16 PM a cautionary color and a lock and "no native option" for eventually hundreds of pages where the option is universally seen as positive and good is just not right and much larger in scope than "some edge cases". I'll conclude with that, since you're quite set against the idea of green! AemonyToday at 9:17 PM It's not a cautionary color It just isn't green As for no native option, that can be rephrased better But it is accurate in that the game includes no native option built-in to adjust the feature I'm also open to suggests of other alternative colors As I've mentioned repeatedly If you think the current color is to "cautionary", then suggest another color (not green, red, or blue) that can be used instead AemonyToday at 9:22 PM The thread that touched on this matter is also still ongoing, and we're looking to implement various changes to clear up confusion and make it clearer for users (as I mentioned at the start somewhere I think), and part of those changes are almost certainly a rephrasing of the tooltips for these various states, as they don't properly account for the various scenarios they're used for.